Dick Osborn

DNA Stuff

Hi everyone,

I’ve been studying the dna test results the last couple days and only now have come to appreciate the amount of effort put into the charts, diagrams and explanations. Thanks for your effort and help Tom. I would like to detail my understanding of the data as it relates to Dick and me.

First, there is the strongest possible paper documentation that Phineas 1767 is my direct ancestor six generations back and although I have not been privy to his documents I know Dick is equally convinced that he is a direct ancestor as well. Because our relationship is established by the paper trail we’re left to try to rationalize the test results.

A look at the 25 marker chart makes it seem pretty clear that we both fit nicely in group 4 and are descendants of Thomas and Mary Goatly Osborn. Dick is unique in the group in that he is the only one in group 4 who varies from the presumed ancestral allele value at allele marker 385a which indicates to me one mutation between him and Phineas 1767. We both vary by 1 at the 391 marker. My situation is that in addition I vary at both the 449 and 464c markers which indicates two mutations between Phineas 1767 and me. Even though these locations are where mutations are most likely to occur, the dna gurus still don’t like a distance of three for proof of a relationship between two people; though according to the charts it does not totally exclude the possibility of us being related. It is Interesting that the results indicate that both of us are closer matches to others in the group whose relationships to us are unknown.

Dick I thought this would be a slam dunk with us matching exactly so I was pretty shocked. As Tom has said it isn’t an exact science with the potential for mutations. At least it put us in the same group. I suspect that additional participants will give us a better understanding of what it all means.

Cheers,

Your mutant cousin,

Jerry

In a message dated 1/2/2008 6:49:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ralphwaite@dexnow.com writes:
<< can you help in this between Jerry and Dick Osborn? Ralph ----- Original Message -----   From: jan&jerry osborn   To: ralphwaite@dexnow.com   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:14 PM Subject: RE: dna Ralph, I’m confused. I now know why I didn’t get a notice when his 25 marker results came back. I don’t match him within 2 markers. I and everyone else in the test are off from him by one marker in the 12 marker test. This accounts for one marker off between us. I must have two mutations between me and Phinias to account for being at least 3 different from him. What’s more interesting is that two of those that I match exactly in the 12 marker test are the two I’m within 2 of in the 25 marker test. He also matches these two within 2 markers in the 25 marker test. All of the data are not up right now so I can’t study it for now. If I find out more I’ll let you know. Jerry   >>
    Hi Ralph. Basically I agree with Jerry, except that the data ARE all up
on the web site so far as I know. Yes, the reason he didn't get notice of
Dick's results is that his genetic distance at 25 markers is 3 and FTDNA doesn't
deem that related, which they end at 2, so they don't notify anyone beyond 2.
    The mutations can be compared by looking at the Alleles Table. I show a
line at the very bottom of the FG4 group called "Most likely ancestral
haplotype", and the yellow alleles are the ones that are different from the ancestral
haplotype.
    Interpreting the alleles is a combinatoric game. Personally, the best
way for me to view it is using a sort of tree diagram like I show on the FG4
page. Altho that one is not up-to-date, it demonstrates the idea. Basically you
are trying to lay out the generations and possible lines that fit the known
paper genealogy, and then stick mutations along the lines that would match the
dna tests. There are probably several different ways the mutations could be
assigned but it should narrow down to a few possibilities. But the bottom line
is that you still have to use paper genealogy to fill out the names.
    Also, I go more by the FTDNATip probabilities than the genetic distance
rules. FTDNA introduced the genetic distance rules back in the beginning as a
"rule of thumb" shorthand indication of relatedness. The probabilities are
more fine grain indications. For example, if you mouse over the 3 between Jerry
and Dick in the genetic distance tables, it will show the cumulative
propability of a common ancestor within 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 years (4
generations per 100 years). And you can see that there is still a decent
probability between Dick and Jerry, 60% within 500 years, and 73% within 600 years.
And bear in mind that these are still based on a "mathematical model" and
reality can still differ from any model... like a weather forcast. So you can't
take any of this as absolute, just the best we can do for now.
    Nice web site you have there at Ralphwaite.com. Let me know if I can
help any more, (not to imply that this is any help ;-) ). Tom Osborne

In a message dated 12/1/2007 1:05:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ralphwaite@dexnow.com writes:

<< What should we do to make the Richard (Dick) Eugene Osborn dna test results available for your project site and interested search ancestors. We assume whatever Jerry Osborn did was done is a similar manner. Dick has a tree listing for his line.   >>
    Richard Eugene is already in the project, and we have just gotten back
his results for the 25 marker test. I have just added him to the Alleles table,
and will be adding him to the genetic distance tables shortly.   In order to
show in his ancestral line on the Family Group 4 page, you will have to send
me his ancestral line. I think you or Dick already sent it in an earlier
email. I you can, I prefer you send it in a Gedcom file which should have more
detailed dates than what you sent, but if you can't do that, then let me know and
I'll use what you already sent.
    His genetic distance results to everyone else in the project is below.
I'll look forward to hearing from you on what to do with his ancestral line.
Tom
--------------------------------------------
12 Marker Analysis
Name    Distance
J. David Osborn 1
Robert Troy Osborne (Y37)   1
David Michael Osborne (Y67) 1
Thorstan Osborne (Y37) 1
Gerald Arthur Osborn (Y25) 1
John Edward Osborne (Y37)   1
Donald Lee Osborne 1
Evelyn Iola Fricke 1
Herbert Hoover Osborn   1
Geoff L. Osborne (Y37) 1
Marshall Kenneth Osborn 1
John Paul Osborne (Y37) 2
Donald Lee Osburn (Y67) 2
Wayne Osborne   2
Donald G. Osborne (Y37) 2
George Emory Osborne    2
Denver Jackson Osborne 2
Warren Dale Osborn 2
Richard Osborn 2
Mark Osborn (Y37)   2
Gary Lee Osburn 2
Milton Howard Osborn    3
Joseph A Osborn (Y37)   3
Darrell Lee Osborn (Y37)    3
Charles Maurice Osborn 3
Bartley Porter Osborne (Y25)    3
Gary E. Osborn 3
James 'Tim' Ausburn 4
Jeffrey P Osborne   4
Harry Dean Ozburn   4
Felipe Osborne Shea (Y25)   4
Richard Newton Osborne (Y37)    4
Frank Jackson Osborn    5
Lynn Osborn Simons 5
Clifton Owen Osborne (Y37) 5
George Albert Osborne (Y25) 5
Lecil Ausburn (Y25) 5
Peter C. Osborne (Y37) 5
Joseph William Osborne (Y37)    5
Maynard Osborne (Y25)   5
Jerry Osborn (Y37) 5
Charles D. Ausburn (Y25)    5
Kevin T. Ozburn (Y25)   5
Van Clayton Osborne 5
Douglas Everard Osborne (Y37)   5
Thomas Lawrence Osborne (Y25)   5
Ronald E. Osborne (Y37) 5
Francis Joseph Osborne (Y25)    5
Joseph Dorsey Osborne (Y25) 5
Van Clayton Osborne (Y37)   5
Larry David Osborne 6
Roger Tennant (Y25) 6
Lloyd William Osborn    6
William Larry Osborne   6
Michael Osborne 6
James Elkin Osbourn (Y37)   7
Meredith Earl Osborne   7
Merlyn Robb Osborn (Y37)    9
Carlton Morris Osburn (Y25) 9
Michael Lee Osborne (Y37)   10
Anderson Eugene Ausburn (Y37)   10
Michael John Osborn (Y37)   11
William Lee Osburn (Y25)    11
Garry Osmun (Y37)   11
Charles Edward Osborne 11
Leo Osborn 11
James F. Osburn (Y25)   11
Jay Martin Osman (Y37) 11
Lee K Osborne (Y37) 12
Larry Morton Ozbun (Y25)    12
John Robert Osborne 12
C. Thomas Osburn    12
Charles Donald Osborne 12
Richard Charles Osborn 12
Jed Eugene Osborn   12
Benjamin Richard Ozbun 12
Marvin Anthony Ausburn (Y67)    13
Raymond Kenneth Osborne 13

25 Marker Analysis
Name    Distance
David Michael Osborne (Y67)    1
Geoff L. Osborne (Y37) 1
Robert Troy Osborne (Y37) 2
John Paul Osborne (Y37)    2
Thorstan Osborne (Y37) 2
Donald G. Osborne (Y37)    2
John Edward Osborne (Y37) 2
Mark Osborn (Y37) 2
Donald Lee Osburn (Y67)    3
Gerald Arthur Osborn   3
Joseph A Osborn (Y37) 4
Bartley Porter Osborne 4
Darrell Lee Osborn (Y37)   6
Clifton Owen Osborne (Y37) 7
George Albert Osborne 7
Peter C. Osborne (Y37) 7
Roger Tennant 7
Felipe Osborne Shea    7
Ronald E. Osborne (Y37)    7
Lecil Ausburn 8
Maynard Osborne    8
Thomas Lawrence Osborne    8
Van Clayton Osborne (Y37) 8
Richard Newton Osborne (Y37)   8
Jerry Osborn (Y37) 9
Francis Joseph Osborne 9
Joseph Dorsey Osborne 9
Joseph William Osborne (Y37)   11
James Elkin Osbourn (Y37) 11
Charles D. Ausburn 11
Kevin T. Ozburn    11
Douglas Everard Osborne (Y37) 13
Lee K Osborne (Y37)    19
Larry Morton Ozbun 19
William Lee Osburn 19
James F. Osburn    21
Marvin Anthony Ausburn (Y67)   22
Merlyn Robb Osborn (Y37)   24
Carlton Morris Osburn 24
Michael John Osborn (Y37) 26
Garry Osmun (Y37) 26
Michael Lee Osborne (Y37) 26
Anderson Eugene Ausburn (Y37) 26
Jay Martin Osman (Y37) 26

|
|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------------------

Joseph Clinton Osborn born 1853 Clayton Center N.Y. never married, died 03/24/1936

William Jefferson Osborn born April 5,1860 Clayton Center N.Y.never married died Sept. 15,1940.

Charles Edward Osborn born Dec. 20,1955 Married Eliz. R. Ebner 1892 in G.R. Mi. died 1939

They had a daughter Lula Osborn born 1897 G.R. Mi. died circa 1920 never married.

Son Claud Dexter Osborn born June 16,1893 Married Anne Lange 1/12/1916,Claud died 8/12/1977

Robert L. Osborn born 10/19/1916 died 4/1/1967He had a daughter Carol Sue born 4/22/1939 died Sept. 1982 never married

Clinton J. Osborn born Oct. 25, 1919 died 3/17/1991 daughter Cathy born1947, son John Claud born 1952, son Jeffrey Charles born 1954 All still living.

Richard E. Osborn born 5/26/1926 married Grace Metz 12/12/1947son Richard Dexter born Nov. 23,1948 never married. Still living

Daughter Amy Christine born March 7, 1966 married has 4 children 2 boys and two girls.Still living

Virginia Anne born Feb. 23, 1929 died 1985 married had 5 children 3 boys two girls.

William Claud Osborn 3/11/1931 died Nov. 29,2001 married had three sons; Clayton born 1972 , Clifford born 1974, Terry born 1983
all children still living.

Ralph: I forgot to included Chloe, she was born 1893in Gull Prairie, Mich. ( apparently they came to vist Sally Ann Eldridges parents.) Chloe married Charles Uhl and they had the following children: Charles Dexter born 1889 in Depauville N.Y. Chloe's husband died in 1915.

Marie Uhl born circa 1890 in Depauville N.Y Marie married Ross Timmerman death date unknown..

Mabel Uhl born circa 1892 Depauville, N.Y.Mabel Gotham date of death unknown.

Ruth Osborn born1/11/1866 in Clayton N.Y. She married William Howk 1887, they had two daughters:

Ruby Claire Howk born 1889 in Watertown N.Y.never married. Ruby died 1989 at 100 years old.

Merle born 1891 married Harold Jebo and they had three daughters, Betty, Mary and Nancy. I am unsure of her death date.